William Cheung & "Traditional" Wing Chun The Quintessential Martial Arts Con-Man.

TAKEN FROM "THE REH FORUM"
http://www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=8146

I don't know how much you all know about Wing Chun, so I'll start with some brief background. WC (Wing Chun) was popularized when a guy named Ip Man started teaching publicly in the early 1950's. Nearly all (I'd say 95%) WC practitioners trace their lineage back to Ip Man's school. Some of his more noteworthy students include Wong Shun Leung, Leung Sheung, Chu Shong Tin, Ip Ching & Ip Chun (Ip Man's sons), and Bruce Lee.

Ip Man taught in Hong Kong for almost 20 years, up until he died around '72 or '73. He had a lot of students over the years, and a few of them reached a very high level of proficiency and became very well known in their own right.

Which brings us to William Cheung. Cheung was actually a student of Ip Man in the '50s & he's the guy responsible for the "Wing Chun" that Robert Downey Jr. studies. (Cheung doesn't teach RDJ directly...RDJ learns from Eric Oram, who is a student of Cheung.) Cheung has some goofy claims, though.

First, what are Cheung's claims? Let's start by summarizing what Cheung's deal is....

Cheung's "Wing Chun" forms look radically different than all of Ip Man's other students, and his "Wing Chun" in practice is very, very different in terms of application. His Siu Lim Tao (the first, most basic form) looks somewhat similar, but the resemblance stops there. What he calls "Chum Kiu", "Biu Jee" & his dummy form (the more advanced portions of the system) look nothing like any of Ip Man's other students. Why is that? Here's where things start to get fishy....

Cheung says his WC is so very different because he, and he alone, was taught a secret version of the system by Ip Man.

According to Cheung, at some point the real, traditional system of Wing Chun was modified into a into a watered-down, deliberately less effective, simpler, weakened version of the system, and it is this "Modified" system that Ip Man taught to EVERYONE.

The "real", "traditional" Wing Chun was just too precious, and too deadly to teach publicly, so Ip Man taught a fake version to his commerical students.

Eventually though, Ip Man met a young, 10-year old William Cheung, and at long last found someone Truly Worthy to whom he could pass down the Traditional Wing Chun. Cheung says Ip Man invited young William to live with him, and it is there that the young Chosen One was SECRETLY trained by Ip Man in the One True Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu. Young William lived under Ip Man's roof training in secret for several years. Eventually, after the young man had mastered Traditional Wing Chun, Ip Man told him that now HE was the Sole Inheritor and Grand-Master of Traditional Wing Chun. Ip Man made young Master Cheung take a Secret Vow to not speak of his secret training, nor to teach anyone the Traditional Wing Chun until after he (Ip Man) died. When Ip Man had died though, William was free to speak of his training, and teach whoever he wanted. Then, at about the age of 18, the new Grand Master of Traditional Wing Chun left Hong Kong for Austrailia.

Meanwhile, while William was being secretly trained by Ip Man, Ip was teaching EVERYONE else the less-effective "Modified" system, for NONE of them were worthy of learning the Traditional system - even guys who started before William. Even Wong Shun Leung, who started before William and added to Ip Man's school's reputation by competing in illegal bare-knuckle fights was unworthy. Even Ip Man's own sons were unworthy. No one was worthy except for William Cheung. ALL of Ip Man's other students were trained in the Modified system, and none of them even knew it. They all thought Ip Man was training them as best he could. He was not, for none of them (repeat: NONE of them) were good enough.

So that's how Cheung explains the difference between what he does, and what everyone else does. And yes, this really is Cheung's story. He ACTUALLY claims this happened, in REAL life.

What's wrong with these claims? Well, if you really think about them, they just don't make sense on any level.

Consider what would have to be true, if Cheung was telling the truth:

1. Ip Man deliberately ripped off ALL his other students, including his OWN SONS. He taught all of them wrong on purpose. That makes Ip Man a jerk, doesn't it? How would you feel if you paid good money to someone for what you thought was effective fighting technique, but it turned out the guy was teaching you less-than-effective stuff on purpose?

2. Why in the world would Ip Man only teach the "secret" kung fu to one guy with the stipulation that the secret stuff can then be taught to anyone and everyone after he died? That makes no sense whatsoever.

If the system was so deadly that Ip Man only trusted ONE person (Cheung) with that system, then why is it ok for Cheung to sell it to anyone after Ip Man dies?

Either Ip Man didn't want the system to get out, or he did.

If he did not want the system to get out, he wouldn't have told Cheung he could teach it commercially.

If he didn't care if the system was sold publicly, then he would have taught it himself.

It makes NO sense that Ip Man would say; "Here is a secret, deadly martial art that only YOU, William Cheung, are worthy of. I give this to you, and you alone! Teach whoever you want, but only after I die!"

Makes NO sense. Ip Man must have been crazy.

3. About a week before Ip Man died, he committed the forms to film. You can actually see Ip Man doing Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, the wooden dummy, and the pole form on youtube.

If we believe Cheung's story, then Ip Man climbed out of HIS DEATHBED, in the throes of cancer, and put a watered-down, modified, commercial, crap-version of Wing Chun on film, so it would never be destroyed.

One would think if Ip Man was going to do such a thing, he would've committed the "real" version of WC on film wouldn't he? After all, didn't he say it would be ok for Cheung to teach it after he (Ip Man) died?

If Ip Man wanted the "traditional" system taught after his death, and he knew he was dying when he made the film, then why wouldn't he record the real stuff, and send it off to Cheung for posterity? Why did he record the "modified" system?!?!

Again, Ip Man must have been insane.

None of these things make sense. In order for Cheung to be telling the truth, Ip Man was a jerk who ripped off and lied to his students. Ip was also probably crazy.


But what if Cheung made the whole story up?
Then all of these things are perfectly explainable:

1. Cheung's forms look different because he never learned any WC beyond Siu Lim Tao. What he wasn't formally trained in, he made up.

This is consistent with the fact that Cheung's Siu Lim Tao looks basically the same as everyone else's, but his other forms do not. If Ip Man really taught Cheung a whole different version of WC, shouldn't Cheung's Siu Lim Tao look as different as his version of Chum Kiu and Biu Jee? It probably should, but it doesn't. Cheung's SLT looks basically the same, but his more advanced forms are radically different than everyone else's.

Cheung was trained in SLT, but received little-to-no formal training in Chum Kiu, Biu Jee, or the dummy.

Cheung's versions of the other forms look like he cobbled them together based on what he could remember from occasionally glimpsing the activity more advanced students, without really understanding the principles behind the movements.

2. Ip Man didn't rip off anyone. He trained everyone as best he could, and did right by his students, giving them all the best instruction he could. This is consistent with every account of Ip Man as given by those who knew him. The consensus is that Ip Man was an honest, honorable, humble, genuinely nice person who would never pull the sort of stunt that Cheung claims.

3. Ip Man wasn't crazy at all. Cheung made up the thing about how "You can only teach the secret system after I am dead!", so Ip Man couldn't refute Cheung's claims. Cheung's whole story hinges on Ip Man, so if Ip Man's dead, he can't exactly set the record straight, can he?

4. Ip Man climbed out of his deathbed and committed REAL Wing Chun to film, because it was important to him that there be a record of his system as he taught it. It was his life's work after all, and it makes perfect sense that he would want to record it for posterity. Makes perfect sense if Cheung is lying.


So these are all the reasons that anyone can logically see that show Cheung is lying. But there's more than just logical reasoning.

Except for Cheung's students, NO ONE backs up Cheung on any of his claims. NO. ONE. I've been into Wing Chung for about 15 years now. I'm in an Ip Ching school right now, but I've hung out with some Leung Ting guys too. After 15 years on this scene, I've talked to a lot of people. Plenty of these people have been into WC longer than me, and NONE of them back up Cheung. ALL of the people I have known through the years who are plugged into the Wing Chun scene....ALL of them know, from conversations they've had, that Cheung is a liar. He never lived with Ip Man. He learned a little bit when he was a teenager, and then moved to Australia.

Also, where's the evidence in support of Cheung's claims? There is a picture of him standing next to Ip Man, but all that means is that he was his student. There's no question Cheung took lessons for a few years. Having your picture taken with the sifu doesn't mean you've mastered anything - there's a picture of Ip Man like that with lots of his students. It only means the person was a student. There's a picture like that of Ip Man with Bruce Lee, & Lee never mastered WC. I have a picture of me like that with my Hong Kong trained sifu - it doesn't mean a thing.

Where's the evidence that Cheung was a live-in student? He says he lived with Ip Man for years, so there should be evidence. How about evidence that he actually started training when he was 10 years old? There isn't any. At all. You'd think that if Cheung lived with Ip Man for years, there ought to be a picture him in Ip's house. Or a picture of a 10 or 11 year old Cheung doing WC, or a picture of Cheung's area in Ip's house or the two of them eating dinner, or training, or SOMETHING to indicate he actually was a live-in student. Or maybe some reference from a 3rd party....like a letter from one WC guy to another where they mention "that kid living with Ip Man." If Cheung really started when he was 10, and if he really lived with Ip, someone would have mentioned it at sometime. There should be some form of evidence. But there isn't. Nada. There's NOTHING to support Cheung's story other than his word.

And, a bunch of Ip Man's former students got together and formally refuted Cheung's claims. Keep in mind these aren't necessarily a bunch of guys that got along well, but they all put aside their differences and came together to refute Cheung's claims. Those guys were: Wong Shun Leung, Leung Ting, Tong Chao Chi, Lok Yiu, Ip Ching, Ho Kam Ming, Siu Yuk Man, Chan Tak Chiu, Tsui Sheung Tin, Koo Sang, Lee Wai Chi, Victor Kan, and Ip Chun. (see http://www.bullshido...537&postcount=1 )

So what do you all think is more likely? That ALL of those guys are lying, or that only Cheung is lying? That ALL of those guys were just jealous, or that Cheung made up this little story, so as to make himself seem more attractive to potential paying students?

Then there's the Boztepe fight: In the mid-80's, William Cheung issued an open challenge to fight (and beat) anyone, anywhere, anytime. A guy named Emin Boztepe took him up on that challenge. The fight was taped & you can see it on youtube. It's actually a pretty embarrassing fight. Neither Boztepe nor Cheung come off as particularly skilled, but there's no question Cheung lost that one.

But if Cheung's telling the truth, and he has MASTERED the real, authentic, unmodified Wing Chun that's way more effective than the watered-down version, how come he got beat so handily by Emin Boztepe? Cheung (& his followers) have all sorts of excuses...."my slippers were slippery! He jumped me from behind!". Excuses like that are weak. I've been beat before, and I don't make any excuses. I bet none of you do, either. There's lots of excuses, but it makes much more sense, when taken along with all the other information I just outlined, that Cheung lost because he really isn't THAT good, has very little formal training from his elders, and his system is stuff he made up. That's HONESTLY the best explanation as to why he got beat.

On the issue of Respect: It's not uncommon, when pointing out how full of $h!t William Cheung is, for someone to say something like "Hey, you should be more respectful!", so I have a couple things to say about "respect", and William Cheung.

William Cheung himself has behaved horribly disrespectfully towards his sifu, his former classmates, and his students.

As I previously discussed, it is an insult to the character of Ip Man to claim that Ip would deliberately cheat ALL his students except for one noobie teenager. How would you feel about an instructor who did that? Pretend for a moment that you're one of the guys who started WC under Ip Man before William Cheung. You pay Ip good money, you work hard, and you trust Ip's training to protect you if you're in danger. You're loyal to Ip, and train with him for almost 20 years until he dies. Then you find out that for all those years, Ip taught you a less-effective, watered-down, crap-version of WC. Ip lied to you and ripped you off for almost 20 years! It turns out he lied to everyone except one guy. The only person Ip taught the real stuff to was a newbie teenager who started after you did, and was only around for a few years!
According to William Cheung, that's exactly what Ip Man did to guys like Wong Shun Leung and Tsui Shong Tin, and even his own sons!

Regarding Cheung's classmates: Again, pretend you're one of Cheung's classmates. How would you feel about Cheung? He's basically saying that he's better than you. Did Ip Man teach YOU Traditional WC? No, he didn't. Why? Because you aren't worthy. None of you were. Cheung is better than ALL of you. Only Cheung was worthy because only he didn't suck. You sucked, so Ip Man didn't gift you with anything other than a watered-down, commercial product version of WC.

Regarding Cheung's students: This is probably the worst part about Cheung's behavior. No one one walks into one of Cheung's schools knowing all the stuff I just presented. Most of his new students probably new to martial arts, so of course they're going to be impressed and become emotionally invested in the school. Cheung will probably become their Kung Fu Hero. Eventually though, they'll learn about the controversies. They'll learn that their Kung Fu Hero has been lying to them. That's gotta be rough. What does a person do when they find out their Kung Fu Hero is full of crap and has been lying to them for months (or years)? 1 of 2 things:

1. They can admit they've been played for a sucker and drop out of Cheung's school. This means they've just dumped a ton of time, money, & hard work right down the toilet.

2. OR they can go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince themselves that Cheung's not really lying, or convince themselves that somehow his lies don't matter - basically they can start lying to themselves, which can't be good for a person's mental health (especially over the long-term).

Neither one of those is fair.

So Cheung's lies insult the character of his sifu, they insult his classmates, and it's horrible to lie to trusting students. Totally disrespectful in every way.

I would submit that if a person behaves like this, they don't deserve respect. Respect must be earned through honest and honorable behavior, and William Cheung is, sadly, a most dishonorable and dishonest person.

You know who does deserve respect? The memory of Ip Man & his other honest students, and the naive students of Cheung deserve our respect. We can give them the respect they deserve by not letting Cheung's disrespectful, insulting, and shameful lies go unchallenged.

And lastly, respect for others is good, but one should have respect for oneself too. Part of self respect is not letting oneself get lied to or played for a sucker by people like William Cheung.

In conclusion: "Traditional Wing Chun" is a lie, and William's story is complete and utter bu11l$h!t.

What REALLY happened is more than likely this: William Cheung took Wing Chun lesson for a few years in the '50's, starting around the age of 15-16. He definitely learned all of Siu Lim Tao, and maybe parts of Chum Kiu and the Wooden Dummy. He never lived with Ip Man, & only attended class sporadically. He moved to Austrailia around age 18. He wanted to set up shop as a kung fu teacher, and figured he could make more money if people thought he was a Great Master with some kind of Ancient Secret Deadly Kung Fu System. He made up "Traditional Wing Chun", and came up with a line of bu11l$h!t about "Secret Training" & a "Vow of Secrecy" in order to cover his ass in case a REAL Wing Chun master should ever happen to point out that William's system has nothing to do with anything Ip Man taught.

What's so stupid about Cheung's approach is that his b.s. is totally unnecessary. Bruce Lee's background was similar to Cheung's: Both learned a little bit of WC, & both moved to different countries before they finished the curriculum. Bruce Lee was honest, though. Bruce Lee basically said "Jeet Kune Do is my own invention. There's some stuff from Wing Chun in it, but I never mastered Wing Chun. JKD is my own thing that I came up with." Look how popular JKD is...no one cares that Bruce Lee made it up.

If Cheung had simply been honest about what his background was, I wouldn't have a problem with him & might even be interested in his system. He chose to be dishonest though!

Grand master William Cheung Story

Hello to all,

I want to introduce my self. My name is Jason and I have been practising Traditional Wing Chun by Grand master William Cheung for 25 years.

I was very happy to train this martial art for all thees years but along with internet and connection media like skype, facebook, and all, I find out the small truth and the BIG lies about lineage and the art of a Grandmaster William Cheung. Olso I find out that his story is fake and that he use some details from history only for his own marketing!

So, let me begin this little of truth and a pack of lies!

First I wanna say that this story is bad for him and i dont want to hurt his feelings, he is great wing chun master, he just not telling the truth always!

William did not learn his system from Ip Man, he learned it from Secret Society in Hong Kong.

He was a student of Ip man, but through his father a high rank police officer, he got contact with the triads and Secret Society in Hong Kong were he learned Red Flag wing chun.

After, he created his own system – The Traditional Wing Chun.

William Cheung learn like that from secret society and modified a little on his own.

Red Flag wing chun, its just better then the Ip Man system but Ip man is the famous one, so William uses it for his marketing.

Anyway, Wong Shun Leung went with his cousin to meet Ip Man, ...William didn't come to the school until almost Three

years after that event!

William was very unpopular with his seniors in Ip Man's school, and no one wanted to teach him.....only Wong Shun Leung gave him some of his time and allowed him to learn with him.

Even Ip Man did not like William Cheung or spend much time teaching him.....that story of William living with Ip Man is another lie....only Chu Shong Tin ever lived with Ip Man.

Sadly, he was mostly seen as a troublemaker and spent more time running with street gangs and causing problems, ....that's why his father sent him to Australia, to save him from the Triads and maybe...death.

In Hong Kong, Chu Shong Tin and Wong Shun Leung did nearly all of the teaching at Ip Man's school at that time!

Theese two students of Ip Man teach William Cheung as beginer and after his problems on the street and with the street gangs, nobady wanna teach him anymore!

As nobody at Ip Man's school wanted to train with him, he find instruction elsewhere and his father help him with Red Flag Secret Society.

His father was a high ranking police officer, ...and VERY corrupt! (he was actually thrown out of the police force in the 60s because he was so dirty), so his father had connections in the underworld and found someone to teach William.

But as it was a triad system, William couldn't name his teacher, so he waited until Ip Man had been dead for about 10 years and suddenly announced that Ip Man had taught him that stuff!

William is bound by an oath not to name his teacher, so he used Ip Man's name instead and made up that ridiculous story!

All of this can be varified in HK where I was.

Iteresting thing is, what William teaches is almost EXACTLY the same as the stuff that Garrett Gee teaches in the Hung Fa Yi system!

That is why more and more people are "seeing the light" and many are coming over to other systems as a result.

So, he can only lie to people for so long before the truth starts to emerge...

and the Internet has "killed" several big liars.

So, to be clear. Grand master William Cheuk Hing Cheung learn wing chun from Wong Shun Leung and

Chu Shong Tin (The first generation in HK) and later he learn from Secret Society Red Fllag Wing Chun, from Hong Kong. He was in Wing Chun from 1954 and go to Australia in 1959. After that is just practising and modificate the art and the truth.

For the end, Traditional William Cheungs Wing Chun is superior, but he is a liar cause he never was student of IP MAN. He learn from Ip Man's students!

THIS IS THE TRUTH AND ONCE MORE ALL OF THIS CAN BE VARIFIED IN HONG KONG IN MUNICIPAL DOCUMENTS AND STATES EVIDENCE.

Jason.

After all,
I was very sad cause I spent a lot of time with my sifu and with sigung William Cheung, and now I know that he spread just a pack of lies. I was angry and in the same moment I was happy cause I know the truth finally.
Through the years, most people told me about similar storys and I did not want to believe but now is clear, very clear. I will continue to train and to lead school
with my own understanding of wing chun kung fu or ving tsun kung fu, what ever, cause thees are just a words, and I will learn my students the whole truth about history because some things they must to know! Several master and sifu's already left William Cheung and World wing chun kung fu association because of this lies and because of his arrogance, vanity and condescension! His first master Dana Wong left him, and than Julian Deboers, first class sifu's. Now there is more and more in the other parts of the world, just, people had enough of his lies!